Car Wash Advisory's very own Harry Caruso recently co-presented a webinar with Everwash's Max Pulcini. Within the webinar, Max and Harry discussed how business owners can optimize their car wash business in order to maximize its value. Check out the webinar above.
MAX:
Welcome, everybody. Thank you for joining our webinar titled "Optimize Your Car Wash Business and Maximize Its Value," presented by Max Pulcini from EverWash and Harry Caruso from Car Wash Advisory. We're really excited to have this awesome conversation here for you all in attendance. We're also recording, and we'll be putting this up on our YouTube and our podcast for anyone else who wants to listen to the conversation later on. But let's go ahead and get started with some intros.
My name is Max Pulcini, and I'm the Director of Marketing and Communications at EverWash. I've been here for over six years now, with a variety of roles and hats. Right now, I am joined by Harry Caruso from the Car Wash Advisory. How are you doing, Harry?
HARRY:
Doing very well, excited to be here, Max, yeah.
MAX:
Thank you for joining. Why don't you let our audience know a little bit about you and what Car Wash Advisory does and how it helps out within the industry?
HARRY:
Yeah, of course. So, Max, my background, and for everybody on my background, is mostly in traditional finance, primarily investment banking and hedge fund investing. Now, in terms of what we do, Car Wash Advisory is an investment bank and an M&A advisor for car washes and only car washes. So, if an owner is looking to sell, do a capital raise, or undertake any sort of capital restructuring, that is our bread and butter and exactly and only what we do, yeah.
MAX:
I know we're going to get into this, Harry, but why does the type of car wash kind of matter when we're approaching questions and situations like this when it comes to M&A, acquisition, selling, etc.?
HARRY:
Yeah, Max, it's a really good point and a good question. So it means a tremendous amount, and the primary reason is quite simplistic but rings true in the end, which is ultimately when you're going to explore selling your businesses, whether it's a single site or multi-site, the end-all question is, well, who is the buyer? That may be a company; it may be an investment group; it may be an individual. But the buyer profiles, as well as the appetite for different car wash models as well as magnitude by way of site count, is extraordinarily different depending on the model and size. So, it does have quite a large implication.
MAX:
Harry, just a couple of questions. Why is the resale value of a car wash so important for operators to consider?
HARRY:
So, I guess, at the end of the day, right, 99% of owners of any businesses, car washes being no exception, will eventually sell. And I assure you this, and I imagine this will be a common thread throughout our discussion here, the way to increase value, they're not quick fixes, right? So even if you're not looking to sell today, building and compounding that value, which will eventually transcend into exit value at some point, is better to get started sooner than later, if you will, as again, there's no golden bullet per se, say. And then next, even for those that don't sell, so if you're going to keep your washes in your family, which is pretty much the coolest thing ever, right, if you're able to do that, even if you are, all the things that you would be maximizing for, optimizing for, in the event of a proposed sale, are all of the factors and characteristics that allow for you to have a business that persists and does so profitably and allows it to transcend through generations and survive and do very, very well. So even if you're not looking to sell, the factors that are optimized for selling are the same that you would look at to keep the business extraordinarily healthy.
MAX:
Right. I mean, it's more of a playbook for success, right? Even if you don't want to exit right away and keep it in the family, it makes a ton of sense to me. And so, with that being said, what are some of those key factors that potential buyers or investors look for when evaluating the resale value of the car wash business, or what are kind of the keys to success that any car wash operation should really focus on?
HARRY:
So, if I had to pick one answer, which I know you're not even asking me to do, but I'll give you a real answer right after this, but it's the team. It's the manager and the employees, and I guarantee there is no buyer group, investor group, or individual out there that does not put that first and foremost. And that may not immediately translate into offers because it's hard to quantify and to convey to somebody, but it most certainly does by way of end transactions. In terms of the larger question here as to what really impacts value, I think it's almost best to think about all of this, Max and everybody that's listening. I think it's best to think about this in terms of, at the end of the day, everybody focuses so myopically and so strongly on what was your last 12 months, you know, revenue or EBITDA or cat right and membership numbers, and don't get me wrong, they're exceedingly, exceedingly important. But if you kind of pull back the curtain a little bit, at the end of the day, what they're buying is the future ability to earn and run this business. And in doing so, yet the historicals absolutely set the precedent and the platform for doing so by way of financial feasibility, transactional feasibility, so on and so forth. But the other part of this entire equation is that's great that somebody can see that future and they can go ahead and propel it to a different level. But are all the pieces in place for them to come in, step in, and actually achieve that future vision, right? That's the harder to quantify but so very important part of it all.
MAX:
Yeah, we're talking a little, like, you know, existential things, right? It's not so much just like, do you have a machine, do you have soap, do you have chemicals? It's people, it's systems, right? We were talking earlier; systems are such an important aspect to this, and systems can manifest themselves in any number of ways, whether they're Marketing Systems, membership systems, operational systems. Just having things in place and not just having everything exist as, "Well, I have a checklist in my brain that I know I need to do every day when I get to work." That's the key, right?
HARRY:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it goes back to, and please, for goodness' sakes, do not think I'm not saying historical financial performance is not, for goodness' sakes, it is. But all is well and good in terms of them having produced this much in gross sales. But to what avail is that if the new owner can't produce it themselves, right? So the systems are extraordinarily important.
MAX:
Yeah. So, you know, again, given your expertise, we wanted to hear from you some stories. We're going to start with the ugly; we're going to work backward. And what I really want you to do here is share a story that people can learn from that'll help guide them down the path of what not to do when going down this route and trying to figure out what the business is valued at. So, take it away, Harry.
HARRY:
Sure. So, without naming, of course, any washes or anything, let's call this purely theoretical with some sort of basis, if you will. There's one instance that I think is most emblematic of what can go wrong and be the binary factor of this should not have been done, period, right? Because it's one thing to decrease value; it's another thing to potentially get yourself into a situation of illiquidity. And this is an example of that. So, there was an instance where we were representing a foresight Express exterior owner who a buyer ended up coming in from seemingly nowhere and almost seemed too good to be true, was fast and heavy, and ended up purchasing the washes. This owner lived multiple states away, had no experience in car washes, had done very little homework on the industry, and was purporting a 1031 rollover. Now, the ugly in this situation is what will ultimately be this buyer then going and reselling these. So, what happened was the transaction closes quite quickly, as you can imagine, with the circumstances at hand, and soon enough, the performance just takes a nosedive. We have now an absentee owner who very quickly realizes that what they bought is something that was entirely purported, and the foundation was the old owner, and everything started going south—everything you can imagine: membership numbers, gross revenue, average ticket price, sites being down. And very quickly, this individual sort of realized over the course of maybe a month and a half, "I should not have done this."
MAX:
Wow, it went south that quick?
HARRY:
Oh, yes, yes. Very fast, very fast because the thing is, and it sounds so very rudimentary, but somebody has to turn the lights on in the morning. So, if that person doesn't come in, it's kind of hard to get the rest of the stuff moving along. So, this individual came in, you know, we kept in contact with them, and we actually ended up selling it for that okay in a month and a half. Now, I will, in all truthfulness, this individual ended up, but it was entirely due to the markets at hand. Ended up just fine by way of financial exit, although had that situation occurred today, there would be an instance of illiquidity; there would be no buyer, quite frankly. And the reason is because at that point, the business was in such a tailspin, and he bought it on their multiples at the time. Everything seemed fine, profitability was fantastic, everything was growing; comes in, nose-dives, and tries to sell. And at that exact time, which was really the peak of the fervor in this industry, he, that individual, was able to get out via selling to a strategic, quite successfully. But again, today, there's no way that simply wouldn't have happened, and that person would be left with having to uproot their life to go do this or a fire sale event.
MAX:
Wow. So, there's really two lessons to be learned here. One is if you are looking to buy another car wash, you need to make sure that the people that made that car wash work are either still in place or offering you a SOP or a manual or some sort of guide to how to make it continue to run as if nothing happened, right? But two is if you know you're looking to sell, if you want to help set up that new person for success, you might want to offer some of these things as well. So, it kind of goes both ways, right?
HARRY:
It definitely goes both ways. And I think that situation is so polarizing because of the very short duration in which this owner owned it. I think when we get to our next tier, which is the bad, not the ugly, that threat of not having transferability by way of systems becomes even more true but more demonstrable because it's hard to convey how a tailspin on a foresight package can happen, otherwise looking great in a month and a half. Yeah, but I assure you it can.
MAX:
Now, part of the reason why this was an example of the ugly but maybe not horror show level ugly was the financial kind of situation at the time that this all went down. You mentioned, you know, if this same deal were to happen today, that operator would not be in a good financial situation. I mean, obviously, we know, you know, the economy is in, you know, a weird place right now. Could you kind of go a little bit deeper to explain the reasons why, you know, at a time like this, it's really important to have your ducks in a row?
HARRY:
Sure. But for fair warning, you are poking the bear here with a comment like this or a question like this.
MAX:
So, this is something that I could go on for quite some time. So, I think the truth of the matter is, and a lot of people dance around this issue, is where are valuations today as opposed to two years ago in this industry? And the answer is inarguably extraordinarily different, period. Like, they are different than where they were. The magnitude of the change that we've seen, and talking about it from the most stylistic sort of cash flow multiple basis or an EBITDA multiple basis, is more pronounced the larger you get by way of the number of sites. So, the mega deals, the large deals are seeing a larger impact than, let's say, the single-site, double-site, triple-site deals. Nonetheless, all of them are feeling the repercussions, and it's due to two things. One is people have become concerned due to whether or not you want to call it a red herring or whether or not you want to call it representative factual evidence of what scaling in this industry
MAX:
Right, yeah. Can you provide some concrete examples, like 18:45? Was there any sort of system that he used to run the business or a visibility aspect that no one could figure out once they saw, you know, under the hood, I guess is a good way to say it?
HARRY:
Yeah, there was a lot, absolutely. So there was a lot of custom equipment that had been, and so fantastically impressive. I'm not, in no way, shape, or form does this deter from the accomplishment of building this. But everything was custom, and when I say everything, I mean everything. There was not a thing that came in from an OEM manufacturer that was not tweaked. So even just getting replacement parts became almost a mental exercise, if you will. I think a really good example of how intertwined this owner was with his washes was even producing, even washing between two sites over 320,000 cars. He was the person. His cell phone was the phone that rang when a customer called the company NW.
MAX:
Right. So now a new operation comes in, and his phone is still the only one attached to signage, maybe. I mean, he's probably on a beach somewhere in, you know, Miami or the Keys enjoying all that money, and now no one's picking up that phone. They didn't have a place for a call center, for example, right?
HARRY:
Absolutely, absolutely. And he, I mean, he did the equipment checks day in and day out. He turned the lights on and the lights off. That does not work when you come to selling, I mean, Max, just to be clear. Not only does it have implications on the valuation, but a lot of times what we like to do is think about it in terms of there's a universe of—and we talked about this at the very beginning—a universe of applicable buyers, right? A buyer universe that has the ability to pay, appetite for it, and so on. The second the business becomes 100% predicated on that one individual, that buyer universe shrinks not by a factor of two but ten, right? So it's huge, and it did rear its head by way of tangible impact in this example.
MAX:
Yeah, I mean, I, again, you can kind of see how everything sounds good on the surface. But when it comes down to the exit strategy, this individual might have shot himself in the foot to a degree and made it a little less of an attractive situation. Now, what do you think he could have done to make this a more attractive situation? And, you know, what are maybe some of the, you know, tangible steps he could have taken to graduate from bad into good or even great?
HARRY:
Yes, so I'm so glad you asked this because I was gonna poke in and make sure that we got this point across. So I think this is a perfect example of how these aren't quick fixes, they're, right? So how do we solve these issues? Yeah, okay, fine, don't customize the equipment. But that's not the bigger issue. The bigger issue is nobody else at the two washes had the authorization to make purchases of equipment replacement parts. Okay, right? So, right. So but, but H, I mean, okay, so how do you fix that problem? Well, you need to build a team that is now capable, has the autonomy to, and would you trust to do that sort of stuff. That is not something that you can go buy at a store, and it's not something that you can do overnight. That takes training, building a culture, right? This stuff takes tremendous amounts of time. So the biggest thing that this individual could have done was to alleviate themselves of responsibility and to empower others at his washes with that responsibility, right?
MAX:
Because, you know, I mean, and maybe you can—I'll frame this as a question. How often when an acquisition happens, how often does the human resources, the people power, save for the owner-operator, how often times do managers, attendants, chemical reps, you know, all the other kind of people power that goes into an operation, how often does that come along with a business?
HARRY:
Well, it always comes along with the question. And Max, it's a really good question. It's how often does it stay, right? And that's, and it's a really good question. I don't mean to be facetious by way of wordplay, but, yeah, yeah. So here's what's interesting: everybody in this industry, there are so many, simply put, just impressive growing companies in this industry right now. And each of them has their own strategies. And I think this is more akin to, like, a Coke-Pepsi type thing and a preference than it is a right-wrong. Believe it or not, I would say that it's close to a 50-50 split by the average acquirer in terms of clearing house versus keeping the team. Interesting. Yeah, it is because—
MAX:
I would imagine it'd be higher given kind of what we're talking about here.
HARRY:
So that's multi-sight, though, just to be fair. So now for individuals, it's almost never the case, other than keeping everybody on because if it's been running well, you don't, what avail is it to get rid of the people that made it run well?
MAX:
The classic "if it ain't broke, why fix it," right?
HARRY:
100%, 100%.
MAX:
Yeah, interesting. All right, cool. Well, that—that's, you know, I—you kind of were a little nervous about the differentiation between ugly and bad. I think there's some clear differentiators here. And, you know, the story is clear for sure. You know, you need to make sure that you're not the only person who can run a site. You need to make sure you have the right people empowered to do their jobs so that way when that transition happens, it's smooth for everybody involved, including the people that, you know, you did leave behind, right? You don't want to set them up for failure, not just the new owner-operator but the people that you spent time and energy investing in, right? Training, you know, working with. So, makes sense to me. Harry, was there anything else you wanted to kind of say in closing with the bad?
HARRY:
I don't think so. I don't think anything in particular.
MAX:
Great. So, you know, we're gonna change our tune a little bit here and start to talk about the good and, you know, rock stars of the industry who have it all set. So, you know, tell us a story, Harry, and then, you know, kind of go into the key factors that these folks did that other folks might be missing pretty easily that can help graduate you from a bad situation to a good or a great one.
HARRY:
Yeah, absolutely. So, for this, it's the more fun side of it, I suppose, right? And just to be clear before getting into the specific story, this holds true for any-sized single site, all the way up to, and especially for the huge mega transactions. The nonsensical crazy multiples that people hear about for these huge transactions, they're almost always, if not but one other time.
Example I have for this one is actually Four Partners who owned a handful of carwashes, okay? And I think a lot of times with multiple partners and owners, it becomes inherently more complex, and there's more compounding risk and error potential in terms of, "Well, he said he was going to do that," and then nobody ends up doing that. These guys were the opposite. They were so impressive. They basically did the exact opposite of the last two examples. What they did is they spent an inordinate amount of, and almost arguably could be perceived as unnecessary, amount of effort and energy to make it so that they were doing nothing by way of the day-to-day operations. And that took years. That was not a quick fix. They did it as partners. And when they went to go sell, what happened in that event, which was just so cool, is believe it or not, these guys—it's called them masochists, if you will—they didn't enjoy the operation side, but they spent all this time to build up all these systems so that they wouldn't have to. What they really liked doing was site selection and development. So they go to sell. There's a tremendous amount of interest, multiple suitors. They end up getting a fantastic valuation and purchase price and deal. But in addition to that, because they had bundled up the core operating sit so succinctly and comprehensively, they were also in that deal able to get a development deal for the acquirer so that they could keep doing what they actually enjoyed doing, not worrying about the operations.
MAX:
That's amazing. Talk about the best-case scenario, right?
HARRY:
They deserve it. They did a lot of stuff they didn't like doing so that they wouldn't have to do it again, and they did it well.
MAX:
That's the value of doing things the right way right from the start. And I say that it doesn't mean that if systems aren't in place, it's never too late to get systems in place, right? Especially when you have partners out there that can help you do that, right? I mean, EverWash, for example, we help create the system for membership sales and subscription management. I would imagine membership is a huge factor when it comes to purchases, acquisitions. So having a system in place for that, and a centralized dashboard with real data that supports the membership program, I'd imagine that's paramount in a situation like this.
HARRY:
Absolutely. I cannot overstate the importance of membership. And additionally, I think one thing that can be overwhelming, Max, especially in a conversation such as this where we're talking about systems, because now you need somebody to handle answering customer complaints, and you know, then you need the equipment, then you need the membership management. I think it's really important to highlight that it's to no detriment if the answer to a question regarding any of these subsilos is, "I'm not sure, let me ask that per EverWash about the membership growth or attrition or anything." That is just as good as that owner owning it. So it's not to say that the owner has to be doing, you know, grow 10 extra arms and be doing everything themselves. Having those system partners is equally as valuable.
MAX:
Right. And, you know, owner-operators, they and we know it, they are true experts when it comes to running a car wash. But there are so many other factors, like you just said: the customer support, the membership management, the maintenance, the mechanical stuff, right? Marketing and branding. There's so many different things that, while an owner-operator is an expert at running their wash, they might not be a subject matter expert at all these other things that go into boosting the profile and the value of that operation. So just lean on the experts around you. You know, when you go to trade shows, when you're going to meetups and talking on Talk Car Wash on the Facebook pages, you know, make sure you're learning from other people out there because even though we have plenty of experts and great operators out there, you're only as good as what you don't know, right?
HARRY:
Absolutely, Max. And this is more me trying to convince myself or reiterate to me one of my mantras, which is, you know, done is better than perfect, right? So it's okay that we don't have a perfect system to answer the phones. But somebody answering the phone as a service is better than no phone number, right? So I struggle with this immensely on a personal basis, and thank goodness I have the team around me to help me with this. But it's sometimes hard to let go and feel overwhelmed with so many aspects. But I think having that in mind that a answering service is better than no phone number, no matter how that answering service is, something's better than nothing, and it's easier than it may initially seem to be.
MAX:
Absolutely. Are there any other tips, tricks, or things that people should be aware of when looking to sell and getting the most out of it?
HARRY:
Yeah, there's a lot. I'm trying to—well, yes, but one thing I'd be remiss not to mention because we didn't mention it as an ancillary service or subsilo, but please don't neglect it: hiring. In theory, we've run into situations where hiring practices have been so blasé that they actually come to inordinately create illiquidity by way of a sale event. If people are not hired correctly, you have to be doing normal background checks and so on and so forth, right? Especially at multi-set operations. In terms of the good, yeah, we've been so fortunate to experience and learn from so many owners that just had it dialed in. I mean, just remarkably impressive people, especially in bay automatic and self-serve owners that have been successful and truly running—I use this very lightly and in a very specific context—absentee setups, right? Because they're not really absentee. And I don't want to say that in a way of telling people that's the way it works, but some people have set up operations where they have it so dialed in that there's not a towel dropped on the ground on their lot without them being aware, despite them being in Florida and the washes being in Pennsylvania. And it's just extraordinary people, extraordinary operations.
MAX:
Seriously amazing, right? That's a winning mentality right there, a growth mentality. What I wanted to say in closing with the good is, again, just reiterating these things that we're sharing, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, isn't just for folks looking to sell today, tomorrow, in a month. For any of the folks out there listening who are happy running their business, these are still tools and techniques and tactics that you can employ, systems that you can create that will not only help your operation run smoother while you're still running it but also set up your family for success in 10, 15 years if you do want to exit and retire to Miami or the Keys, wherever it may be. Get this stuff in now because if you don't think about it now and you start thinking about it the day before you decide to put a "for sale" sign out on your lot, it's not going to be smooth, and you might fall into one of the first two categories that we discussed today as opposed to the last.
HARRY:
Yeah, Max, I haven't had it happen to us yet, but I am dreading the day I get a call or a knock on wood, heaven forbid, an event, right? An owner whose spouse is less involved calling us and saying, "You know, unfortunately, my spouse has passed. What do I do with this car wash?" That's not a wonderful position to be in. Nobody would wish that upon their loved one. So I think you're right in terms of thinking about these factors. They are just as valuable for an heir or spouse as it is for a buyer.
HARRY:
We have a few questions that came in, Harry. Do you have some time to take them?
MAX:
Absolutely. So the first question coming in from S, and I know we haven't talked too much about self-served car washes today, but the question is, what is the average multiplier used for self-serve car washes?
HARRY:
Yeah, absolutely, Max. I think what this individual is asking is what is the cash flow multiple in terms of what are they being valued at. So self-serves and in-bay are interesting right now, especially with combos. I'll do my best to not go off the rails here and give you a two-hour spill, but S, I believe, yes, the asker name was. So in terms of self-serves, you're looking at somewhere between 4.5 to 7, which is the largest band you're going to find in terms of adjusted cash flow multiples. The reason is that a self-serve is a wash model that is financially viable at the lowest revenue level. You're not going to keep a full express exterior running if you're doing $80,000 of revenue. But a self-serve that's unattended, that is financially viable with a very low revenue, so the band of operating feasibility and the flavors and sizes that self-serves come in vary so much that it's going to have the largest valuation band. So that's the short answer. The long answer is whenever valuing a self-serve, it's very important, and in-bay just to at least in the back of your mind, and we do this for all people who come to us for evaluation, is it's always worth at least painting the picture of what would a conversion scenario look like if it so happens that the buyer out there in that buyer universe who would pay most is somebody who would actually do a conversion scenario.
MAX:
Thanks for that question, Sal. This is from an anonymous attendee. What are the factors to valuing a flex-service wash before it opens? And there's a part two to the question: How have you approached leasing versus selling versus running a wash for two years before you get data?
HARRY:
Yeah, this one is going to be really hard for whoever the anonymous asker is to cover comprehensively because these are really good questions. It's almost a perennial one, which we're constantly asked, which is, "Okay, I'm about to open or I'm halfway through building or I'm three months post-opening. When is the right time to sell? How long do I have to operate it for? Where's that optimality?" So I wish that there was a perfect answer that would apply in all circumstances. The truth of the matter is you're going to have to take a step back and say, "Okay, what is the buyer universe for this?" It might be an individual, but that would allow you to determine where that sort of value attribution is in terms of how long you have to run it. Our general rule of thumb is you need to be running something that includes from the startup of building to making a significant price change. You need to have that in place for nine months roughly in order to get full value attribution for it. That being said, there is sort of a parabolic situation here where, in many instances, you're better off, more akin to pre-revenue companies in the venture capital space. You can actually get more by selling before you open the doors than you would a week after opening the doors because you're inherently lowering that sort of potential ceiling. So there's a lot there. Whoever asked that, I won't spare everybody else from me ranting for two hours, but I would be happy to discuss further.
MAX:
Two more questions came in. Another one, this is from Brent. Is a group of washes, say, six locations, worth more together or individually if they are self-serve and in-bays? If you know, what is the way to look at that?
HARRY:
Yeah, so the simple answer is, yes, they are worth more together. The one caveat there is if the pro forma use and current performance are so vastly different that one would be or a handful or a subsect of these washes would be viewed as being almost an entirely different business type. So if you have a package of five, and four of them do $500,000 in revenue, and one of them does a hundred, that might be a situation where it's not as simple as yes, you should force this last one in. But by and large, valuations do benefit from multiple sites, including on the in-bay automatic and self-service side. Got it.
MAX:
Great. And then the last question that we have right now is from Eric. What is the multiple range for a self-serve and IBA mixed site?
HARRY:
Yeah, that's a good question too. There are different revenue bounds, but the short answer there is you're looking at 6 to 7 on average. And that's adjusted cash flow. So depending on where your revenue range is, you can presume that it would be somewhere in the tune of, let's call it 6 to 7 times on adjusted cash flow with a presumed 50 to 55% cash flow margin on total gross sales.
MAX:
Got another question here from Rich. This is a really good one. Do license plate scanners add more value versus RFID? Are you seeing Tesla charging at cleaning stations as a value add in this type of situation?
HARRY:
The Tesla charger one, to work in from the rear here, is a fantastic question, and that's one I don't have an answer to because there's just not enough demonstrable data yet. But there's a larger conversation to be had about that. It's not enough to say one way or the other, so let's call it indeterminate as of today. It certainly does not harm value, but it is quite an investment by way of the RFID versus the license plate verification. So the answer is there is, by and large, no. However, to specific buyers, it will be worth more. An example of this, and I think the best way to think about this is POS, right? So if you're running IC versus DRB Strategic A versus Strategic B, they will pay more for the one that they're on. The problem is you're all but solving for an unsolvable variable without knowing who the buyer is. So by and large, it's something that really can't be optimized for, but it may end up being something that you are the beneficiary of, assuming that it is a fitting suitor.
MAX:
Makes sense, makes sense. So, you know, with that being said, Harry, any last-minute parting thoughts? Any advice that you'd like to give to our audience out there?
HARRY:
Max, other than just thank you all for joining and please, please never hesitate to reach out if we can be of help with anything. But also, please don't be afraid to get valuations done or to talk about financial conversations. That stuff is easier to talk about than you think, and as long as you're talking to the right person, it's always and forever will be confidential. So thank you all so much for joining.
MAX:
And thank you for joining me. This is a lot of fun, always a pleasure to talk shop with you, Harry, and looking forward to the next conversation.
HARRY:
Likewise. Thank you so much.
MAX:
And thanks to everyone else joining. Looking forward to speaking with you all again soon, whether it's through a screen or in person. Have a great rest of your day, and we will all talk soon. Thank you.
